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admin · Site Admin Joined: 14 Dec 2007 Posts: 18

If the legends are to be believed, Muso Gonnosuke Katsuyoshi is the only person to ever defeat Musashi, the legendary swordsman, and he did it with a jo! Does this make the jo the ultimate weapon?

fairyninja · Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:43 am Post subject:

their is no ultimate weapon, each weapon is individual and has it's own sence of spirit.

superhybridfighter · Joined: 17 Dec 2007 Posts: 9 Location: Taunton

If the same techniques were applied with a sword, would the result not have been the same? Rolling Eyes

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admin · Site Admin Joined: 14 Dec 2007 Posts: 18

It was the longer reach of the Jo and the speed with which the end can move that gives this weapon the advantage.

sean · Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22 Location: united dojos

neither of those are the weapons tho, they are nothing without the years of training each martial artist put into them so was it the jo that beat the sword or Muso Gonnosuke Katsuyoshi that beat Musashi.......

Starks · Joined: 28 Dec 2007 Posts: 5 Location: Australia QLD (ATM)

I totally agree with Sean there. If Muso Gonnosuke Katsuyoshi had a sword and Musashi had a jo, would Muso Gonnosuke Katsuyoshi still have defeated Musashi, If of course they both had the same expertise in each weapon as the other one did.
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superhybridfighter · Joined: 17 Dec 2007 Posts: 9 Location: Taunton

mind you, guns are pretty effective Sad

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sean · Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 22 Location: united dojos

especially big ones Wink

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Tony Prince · Joined: 29 Feb 2008 Posts: 2

If I can remember the story: didn't Muso G first fight Musashi with a long staff and conceded defeat when Musashi trapped it in cross swords? As he conceded Musashi did not harm him. Muso G went away and thought about it and it was because the staff was too long he couldn't manouvre it out in time before Musashi could have delivered a finishing strike, so he conceded.
Muso G then reasoned that with a shorter staff he could have gained advantage. So the second time they met in challenge the situation was reversed and Musashi conceded.
I don't know how true that story is, but as the book of five rings suggests Musashi must have been totally formidable.
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Tadakatsu · Joined: 07 Apr 2008 Posts: 114 Location: Mikawa Province

I agree with fairyninja, there is no ultimate weapon. But here are some of my favs!

A zanbatō (斬馬刀, literally "horse-slaying sword" or "horse-chopping saber") is an especially large type of Japanese sword, the historical use of which is disputed. The sword closely resembles the nodachi or ōdachi, however it differs from the nodachi by having a ricasso of approximately 12 to 18 inches. This lends more to the theory of the sword having a practical use in feudal Japan. The increased length of the blade, along with the extra grip, would give it dual use both as a sword and as a spear-type weapon used for attacking advancing cavalry. This style of zanbatō sword can be found for sale in rural tourist shops and stands in Kyoto and Nara prefectures of Japan. This sword may have been inspired by the Chinese zhan ma dao (see below), as both were said to have been used for killing the horse and rider in one swing. It is likely that the zanbatō is actually a mis-construction of the zhǎn mǎ dāo, poorly drawn or translated by Japanese travellers who witnessed the weapon being used during battle.

Such extremely long swords did exist, and are well documented. Given the skill necessary to forge and heat-treat katana, experienced smiths often took upon themselves to prove their talent by creating these so-called "zanbatō" as a way to challenge themselves. This led to the extremely long blades often seen in ancient photographs and depictions, some of which were so long (over a dozen feet long) that they could hardly be mistaken for something other than display pieces.

Chinese zhǎn mǎ dāo
A Chinese anti-cavalry weapon of the Song Dynasty written also as 斬馬刀 (zhǎn mǎ dāo, literally "horse-cutting blade") is of similar proportion to a zanbatō, although it differs in form. Surviving examples include a sword that might resemble a nagamaki in construction; it had a wrapped handle 37 cm (15 in) long, like the zanbatō. However, the blade differed, having only a slight curve in the last half, whereas the zanbatō's curve stretched the length of the blade and handle, similar to a katana.

Zanbatō in modern fiction
The fictional interpretation of the weapon consists of a large, wide blade attached to an extended, pole-like hilt. The sword, and variations of it, are used by many characters in anime and video games. These interpretations often simply depict the weapon as an oversized sword or being imbued with magical properties. However, the weapon which most closely resembles such instances is the eku, or "wooden oar."

***Caaaaw I'd like to get my hands on that, oh, the sword aswell....***

That badboy is 6ft in length!!

So the closest thing to a training version of a Zanbato would be a Suburi Bokken, which is based off of Mushashi Miyamoto's oar which he carved on the way to fight Sasaki Kojiro on Ganryu Island.

Now probably my second fav 'Ultimate Weapon', used by the legendary Honda Tadakatsu of The Tokugawa, if you know much Samurai history that is.
The Tonbogiri (蜻蛉切, Tonbogiri?) is one of three legendary Japanese spears created by the famed swordsmith Masazane, said to be wielded by the daimyo Honda Tadakatsu. The spear derives its name from the myth that a dragonfly landed on its blade and was instantly cut in two. Thus Tonbo (Japanese for "dragonfly") and giri (Japanese for "cutting"), translating this spear's name as "Dragonfly Cutter/Cutting spear".

Dragonflies are believed to symbolize the samurai, mainly for their simplicity and courage.

The bonji (Siddham script) "ka", "kirîku" and "sa" can be seen.
- ka = Jizô Bosatsu 地蔵菩薩　
- kirîku = Amida Nyorai 阿弥陀如来
- sa = Kanzeon Bosatsu 観世音菩薩

These are some of my favs, among many, but these are more historical and sacred than others.
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